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	<title>Comments on: Separation of Clergy and Laity?</title>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://prayeramedic.com/2008/10/separation-of-clergy-and-laity/comment-page-1/#comment-330</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 22:36:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Hi Dan, you&#039;ve got some good comments already, especially Daniel&#039;s. (Too many Dans here, it&#039;s confusing :-)&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I&#039;ve written a reply myself but it&#039;s &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://blog.scilla.org.uk/2008/10/clergy-and-laity.html&quot; REL=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;on my own blog&lt;/a&gt;. Hope that&#039;s OK. Grace, peace, and joy in the Lord.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Dan, you&#8217;ve got some good comments already, especially Daniel&#8217;s. (Too many Dans here, it&#8217;s confusing <img src='http://prayeramedic.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve written a reply myself but it&#8217;s <a HREF="http://blog.scilla.org.uk/2008/10/clergy-and-laity.html" REL="nofollow">on my own blog</a>. Hope that&#8217;s OK. Grace, peace, and joy in the Lord.</p>
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		<title>By: prayeramedic</title>
		<link>http://prayeramedic.com/2008/10/separation-of-clergy-and-laity/comment-page-1/#comment-329</link>
		<dc:creator>prayeramedic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 17:37:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>P.S. Daniel, I&#039;m also writing about this at &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://390days.com&quot; REL=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;390days.com&lt;/a&gt; if you&#039;re interested, I&#039;d love to get your input over there as well!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>P.S. Daniel, I&#8217;m also writing about this at <a HREF="http://390days.com" REL="nofollow">390days.com</a> if you&#8217;re interested, I&#8217;d love to get your input over there as well!</p>
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		<title>By: prayeramedic</title>
		<link>http://prayeramedic.com/2008/10/separation-of-clergy-and-laity/comment-page-1/#comment-328</link>
		<dc:creator>prayeramedic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 17:32:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thanks Daniel for giving some scriptural feedback! Particularly the verse about Jesus saying &#039;call no man teacher&#039;. I think that verse is often left out when discussing leadership roles in the church. Thanks, and I will continue asking the tough questions!&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Dan</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Daniel for giving some scriptural feedback! Particularly the verse about Jesus saying &#8216;call no man teacher&#8217;. I think that verse is often left out when discussing leadership roles in the church. Thanks, and I will continue asking the tough questions!</p>
<p>Dan</p>
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		<title>By: Like a Mustard Seed</title>
		<link>http://prayeramedic.com/2008/10/separation-of-clergy-and-laity/comment-page-1/#comment-327</link>
		<dc:creator>Like a Mustard Seed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 17:18:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prayeramedic.com/2008/10/separation-of-clergy-and-laity/#comment-327</guid>
		<description>Dan, You are asking some very key questions!  It&#039;s encouraging to see that you&#039;re longing to find answers to these questions that truly come from the bible, and not just the opinions of people....&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;There is no question that there is authority within the body of Christ.  However, it is a kind of authority that is radically different than any other on the face of the earth.  We see this alluded to in the verse you quoted in 2 Corinthians, which says &quot;the authority the Lord gave me for building you UP, not for tearing you down&quot;...  &lt;br/&gt;  &lt;br/&gt;Unlike any other group of people in all of history, we are lead by Christ, through the Holy Spirit.  The spirit is given to all believers, and He is not limited to certain locations, or a certain number of people.  We have authority to preach the gospel, and over spiritual realms and strongholds, all this comes from the Spirit at work within us. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Now, do we receive the Holy Spirit as a result of entering into a relationship with God through faith in Christ?  Or, through submitting to people in positions of authority within a church?  When we stand before the throne of judgment, will we be able to appeal to our submission to people who called themselves pastors or elders?  Or will we stand or fall based on whether we trusted in Christ alone?  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Again, I ask, is authority within the body based on position, or on the maturity a person has in their relationship with Christ, as they are empowered by the Spirit?  The bible calls us to &quot;submit to one another&quot;... and also Christ says, &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&quot;But you are not to be called &#039;Rabbi,&#039; for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth &#039;father,&#039; for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called  &#039;teacher,&#039; for you have one Teacher, the Christ. 11The greatest among you will be your servant. 12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.&quot;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Obviously the God calls us to teach one another, to build one another up, and yet Christ says we are not to call anyone &#039;teacher&#039;, which seems a very clear warning against the idea of setting up POSITIONAL leadership.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Also, Paul, who as you pointed out understand that he carried a burden of authority within the body, says &quot;But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! (Galatians 1:8)  Here we see Paul saying that even if HE, and apostle, should preach a different gospel, then they should ignore him.  He certainly doesn&#039;t appeal to the notion that he should be listened to simply because of who he is, or what he&#039;s been called.  In Acts we also see Paul commending the Bereans because they didn&#039;t receive his message based on Paul&#039;s reputation as an apostle, but rather they checked everything he said against the scriptures, to determine if it was true.  It is the Spirit of truth, the gospel itself, that has the real authority.  As long as we remain in step with the Spirit, we carry that authority with us.  As soon as we depart from Him, we are simply men and women with a worldly agenda.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;As far as the &quot;appointing&quot; of elders or overseers, we have to ask, was that the act appointing people to an &#039;open&#039; position, like filling a job vancany in a corporation?  Or was Paul instructing Timothy to go back and acknowledge the individuals who already WERE filling this role, so as to affirm the mature follwers of Christ were, so that others could emulate them?  And therein lies the distinction.  Positional leadership consists of a limited number of people, who become &#039;leaders&#039; because they receive a title from someone &#039;above&#039; them.  They see their position as being one that is unique to the rest of the body.  Exemplary leadership is defined not by any official title, but by what the individual is actually DOING.  The goal of this kind of leadership is to be an example to others, with the idea that everyone in the body can achieve the same level of maturity and significance in the work of the kingdom.  It seeks to raise others up in their maturity, so as to eventually erase the divide between the spiritually mature and the spiritually infantile.  Positional leadership exists by continually reinforcing the distinction between those on each side of the leadership &#039;fence&#039;.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I could talk abou this forever, but this is already way too long.  I&#039;m glad you are exploring these things, as they have completely blown me away in my understanding of the Kingdom, and how we fit into it.  I hope you continue on the path of asking the tough questions, you won&#039;t be disapointed...&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;In Christ, Daniel</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan, You are asking some very key questions!  It&#8217;s encouraging to see that you&#8217;re longing to find answers to these questions that truly come from the bible, and not just the opinions of people&#8230;.</p>
<p>There is no question that there is authority within the body of Christ.  However, it is a kind of authority that is radically different than any other on the face of the earth.  We see this alluded to in the verse you quoted in 2 Corinthians, which says &#8220;the authority the Lord gave me for building you UP, not for tearing you down&#8221;&#8230;  </p>
<p>Unlike any other group of people in all of history, we are lead by Christ, through the Holy Spirit.  The spirit is given to all believers, and He is not limited to certain locations, or a certain number of people.  We have authority to preach the gospel, and over spiritual realms and strongholds, all this comes from the Spirit at work within us. </p>
<p>Now, do we receive the Holy Spirit as a result of entering into a relationship with God through faith in Christ?  Or, through submitting to people in positions of authority within a church?  When we stand before the throne of judgment, will we be able to appeal to our submission to people who called themselves pastors or elders?  Or will we stand or fall based on whether we trusted in Christ alone?  </p>
<p>Again, I ask, is authority within the body based on position, or on the maturity a person has in their relationship with Christ, as they are empowered by the Spirit?  The bible calls us to &#8220;submit to one another&#8221;&#8230; and also Christ says, </p>
<p>&#8220;But you are not to be called &#8216;Rabbi,&#8217; for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth &#8216;father,&#8217; for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called  &#8216;teacher,&#8217; for you have one Teacher, the Christ. 11The greatest among you will be your servant. 12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.&#8221;</p>
<p>Obviously the God calls us to teach one another, to build one another up, and yet Christ says we are not to call anyone &#8216;teacher&#8217;, which seems a very clear warning against the idea of setting up POSITIONAL leadership.  </p>
<p>Also, Paul, who as you pointed out understand that he carried a burden of authority within the body, says &#8220;But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! (Galatians 1:8)  Here we see Paul saying that even if HE, and apostle, should preach a different gospel, then they should ignore him.  He certainly doesn&#8217;t appeal to the notion that he should be listened to simply because of who he is, or what he&#8217;s been called.  In Acts we also see Paul commending the Bereans because they didn&#8217;t receive his message based on Paul&#8217;s reputation as an apostle, but rather they checked everything he said against the scriptures, to determine if it was true.  It is the Spirit of truth, the gospel itself, that has the real authority.  As long as we remain in step with the Spirit, we carry that authority with us.  As soon as we depart from Him, we are simply men and women with a worldly agenda.</p>
<p>As far as the &#8220;appointing&#8221; of elders or overseers, we have to ask, was that the act appointing people to an &#8216;open&#8217; position, like filling a job vancany in a corporation?  Or was Paul instructing Timothy to go back and acknowledge the individuals who already WERE filling this role, so as to affirm the mature follwers of Christ were, so that others could emulate them?  And therein lies the distinction.  Positional leadership consists of a limited number of people, who become &#8216;leaders&#8217; because they receive a title from someone &#8216;above&#8217; them.  They see their position as being one that is unique to the rest of the body.  Exemplary leadership is defined not by any official title, but by what the individual is actually DOING.  The goal of this kind of leadership is to be an example to others, with the idea that everyone in the body can achieve the same level of maturity and significance in the work of the kingdom.  It seeks to raise others up in their maturity, so as to eventually erase the divide between the spiritually mature and the spiritually infantile.  Positional leadership exists by continually reinforcing the distinction between those on each side of the leadership &#8216;fence&#8217;.  </p>
<p>I could talk abou this forever, but this is already way too long.  I&#8217;m glad you are exploring these things, as they have completely blown me away in my understanding of the Kingdom, and how we fit into it.  I hope you continue on the path of asking the tough questions, you won&#8217;t be disapointed&#8230;</p>
<p>In Christ, Daniel</p>
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		<title>By: prayeramedic</title>
		<link>http://prayeramedic.com/2008/10/separation-of-clergy-and-laity/comment-page-1/#comment-326</link>
		<dc:creator>prayeramedic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 12:41:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prayeramedic.com/2008/10/separation-of-clergy-and-laity/#comment-326</guid>
		<description>Well said, M. Sounds like the premise of a book I was recommended to read entitled &quot;Biblical Eldership.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well said, M. Sounds like the premise of a book I was recommended to read entitled &#8220;Biblical Eldership.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: M</title>
		<link>http://prayeramedic.com/2008/10/separation-of-clergy-and-laity/comment-page-1/#comment-325</link>
		<dc:creator>M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 03:18:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prayeramedic.com/2008/10/separation-of-clergy-and-laity/#comment-325</guid>
		<description>Acts 20 contains Paul&#039;s exhortations to the Ephesian elders. Once gone, they were to take full responsibility before the Lord for the local church in Ephesus. Not people some place else, but they alone, before the Lord. Not one person, but a plurality of elder who fed the flock of God, over which the Holy Ghost made them overseers, responsible to the Lord directly in the local chuch.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;According to this Biblical pattern, we thus have plurality of pastors and teachers within the local church, and the local church&#039;s autonomy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Acts 20 contains Paul&#8217;s exhortations to the Ephesian elders. Once gone, they were to take full responsibility before the Lord for the local church in Ephesus. Not people some place else, but they alone, before the Lord. Not one person, but a plurality of elder who fed the flock of God, over which the Holy Ghost made them overseers, responsible to the Lord directly in the local chuch.</p>
<p>According to this Biblical pattern, we thus have plurality of pastors and teachers within the local church, and the local church&#8217;s autonomy.</p>
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		<title>By: prayeramedic</title>
		<link>http://prayeramedic.com/2008/10/separation-of-clergy-and-laity/comment-page-1/#comment-324</link>
		<dc:creator>prayeramedic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 02:32:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prayeramedic.com/2008/10/separation-of-clergy-and-laity/#comment-324</guid>
		<description>Thanks Eric, that&#039;s the same advice Frank Viola gave me. I do intend to read his book, &lt;i&gt;Reimagining Church&lt;/i&gt;, next. I&#039;d really appreciate it if someone could briefly address these specific scriptures now for me though, as they are really on my mind. I will read the book, but could someone simply address these passages of scripture for me? Thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Eric, that&#8217;s the same advice Frank Viola gave me. I do intend to read his book, <i>Reimagining Church</i>, next. I&#8217;d really appreciate it if someone could briefly address these specific scriptures now for me though, as they are really on my mind. I will read the book, but could someone simply address these passages of scripture for me? Thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://prayeramedic.com/2008/10/separation-of-clergy-and-laity/comment-page-1/#comment-323</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 02:04:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I would definitely recommend reading part 2.......called &quot;Re-imagining church&quot;   .....then post if it answered your questions :)&lt;br/&gt;keep seeking Bro...and be blessed!!!&lt;br/&gt;EROPPER</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would definitely recommend reading part 2&#8230;&#8230;.called &#8220;Re-imagining church&#8221;   &#8230;..then post if it answered your questions <img src='http://prayeramedic.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> <br />keep seeking Bro&#8230;and be blessed!!!<br />EROPPER</p>
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