Here’s a short (7 minute) video I put together highlighting some prominent American preachers and their teachings. Tiffany and I are going to begin posting vlog posts (video blog posts) alongside written posts. My wife is much more of a visual learner, and I prefer to read. So in order to effectively communicate with both audiences, we now present both mediums. I spent A LOT of time putting this clip together and finding clips of all the preachers I have in here. I’ll let the video speak for itself.
UPDATE: The vimeo difference. I uploaded this to vimeo to get better quality, it looks much better. You can still watch it on YouTube below as well if you’d like (or if this player doesn’t work for you).
Return to the Bible Vlog Post from Dan O'Day on Vimeo.
YouTube Version: You can go to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-sC9CC22gM&feature=player_embedded to view it if the above video does not work for you.
Is the American church in trouble? Are wackiness, relativism, and postmodernism overcoming the pure Gospel of Jesus Christ? What will happen if churches continue to embrace the teachings of prominent preachers in America who teach false doctrine? What did you think of the film?
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{ 42 comments… read them below or add one }
Watching the video makes it obvious why so many non evangelical conservatives don’t want to deal with the christian right politically. I know thats not your point so please forgive me.
Hey Dan,
I like it for the most part. A little seems over the top, but I think that was part of the idea here – to provide a shock to make people realize how far astray things have gotten.
Here is one thing that I wrestle with as a preacher: I want to make the Scripture’s point understandable within culture, and so I have to use culture in order to be understood. How do I guard myself from preaching culture rather than preaching Scripture? Like I said, it’s a struggle for me – I don’t think something easily band-aided, but I think it is the driving force behind much of this going astray.
in Christ,
jW
Hey Jay, yeah it may seem a little over the top, but that’s likely because you are not exposed to it as much in the Lutheran circles. I’m not saying you are naive by any means, but my wife and I only recently came out of Charismania Pentecostalism and even a neo-Pentecostal cult. This has been a reality for us. Two local churches were sending people by the droves to the Todd Bentley revival (many people we know) and one of those churches literally almost ruined one of our family members’ lives (a long story).
It is true that we must make Scripture understandable with culture, but not at the expense of the message. The examples in this film show the extreme end of when the message is sacrificed for culture, postmodernism, spiritual deception, or just plain craziness.
The struggle is real, but I wanted to show some people what is out there because many are never exposed to this stuff. I can get it any Sunday by only driving a few minutes. Pastor Steve Munsey’s church is where my wife first attended, and it took awhile for her to identify what was Biblical and what was positive confession or the prosperity gospel (if you count his church, there are three wacky churches within 30 minutes from where I live).
But yes, you got the point. It was a shock to wake people up to the crazy stuff going on around us. The thing is, IT’S GOING TO GET WORSE JAY. Pentecostalism is growing rapidly while mainstream evangelicalism is going stagnant and rapidly declining. My generation has virtually disappeared from churches and if they ever return, typically do so to mega-churches or Charismatic types. I do hope this serves as a wake up call.
None of this was over the top. This was pretty bad a year or two ago, but all of these clips are now tired, old news. The fads have moved on: further from the Bible and deeper into lunacy.
There were no clips of the “40 Day Sex Challenge”. I didn’t see any “Clown Church”. There were no “Christian-Bhuddist” pastors.
…I wish I could say that this is extreme shock, but I have seen far, far worse.
…oh and don’t forget “Chrislam” (Christ + Islam.)
Perhaps Dan (prayeramedic), you could do a 2nd clip that could expose more of these heresies?? I am not, and i am sure that there are others that are not familiar with what Mike has been mentioning, specifically 40 day sex challenge, clown church, and Christian Buddhist pastors…this seems like interesting stuff…but scary. thanks for your insight!
Perhaps part two may appear soon….
Kenith Hagin’s maniacal laughter sounded like something from the villain in a Batman movie or something. I was half expecting the caped-crusader show up and start duking it out with his henchmen….
Whoa – I’m not allowed to watch TBN anymore – my blood pressure goes through the roof. Most of it is funny yet really sad cause the stuff is really out there (as well as being really out there!). Hank Hanegraff’s book, “Counterfeit Revival” though old now, is a good read on this stuff.
Tiffany and I have actually been reading that book at night! That’s a lot of what we have come through over the years. (P.S. I found the book at the library for 50 cents).
cults are running wild personal decernment does not exsit personal fredoms in crist are being taken advatage of i have recently left a church were sheparding was being practiced ptl i have seen the light open for commets
Hey Lou, by shepherding are you referring to the authority teachings of neo-Pentecostal cell group movements such as G12?
(We have counterfeit revival too, good read….)
Very good post.
I’m a bit confused about why Rob Bell was included in that video. He’s not a part of “Charismania Pentecostalism” like most of the others. And, in the context of the rest of that video, I think what he said there about Peter actually makes sense (if that’s a clip from his “Dust” Nooma video, which I think it is).
I also found it interesting that in a post titled “Why Did We Stop Using the Bible?” the Rob Bell video actually showed him dealing with a passage of Scripture. His was the only video clip that did.
So… I’m curious. Dan?
To clarify: When I said, “in the context of the rest of that video,” I was referring to the rest of Rob Bell’s Nooma video & the other 10-15 minutes of his message, not the context of the rest of the video clip compilation Dan put together. Going back and re-reading my comment while it awaits moderation, I realized that I wasn’t as clear as I should have been. Oops.
Hi Rich, are you familiar with Rob Bell’s interview in which he dodges the question, “Do you believe in a literal hell?” Instead of letting his yes be yes and his no no (Matthew 5:37; James 5:12), he condemns those who give a “yes” answer to the question. Then, as he often does, he talks around the question in a very intriguing way and never fully gives an answer. Kind of a problem. A lot of the people in that video believe they are using Scripture, but clearly they misinterpret quite a bit. I believe Rob Bell is no exception.
Rob Bell is someone I admired for quite some time, but I’ve since realized how he uses good speaking skills and controlled delivery to delude many with misleading doctrine. Not cool. If I set sail for Hawaii, but I am one degree off course, will I get there? No, I won’t. Even that one degree of error is enough to throw me tragically off course over time. I put that clip in there knowing I’d take some heat from it, but hey….
P.S. Yes that is the “Dust” NOOMA video. My problem is not always the content of the NOOMA videos, it’s the fact that churches today are using NOOMA videos and other pre-made material to teach the Word instead of simply praying and studying the Bible and teaching the Bible to people. Why must we always use fad literature and personal experience instead of the objective truth found in the Word of God? Why are we always teaching on new topics, and using the Bible to back it up, rather than teaching Scripture and letting it speak for itself?
I see, thanks. I was just surprised to see him lumped in with the other folks in that video. “One of these things is not like the other.”
I have no problem with you or anyone else critiquing Rob Bell. But…
As someone who has done a lot of preaching — and heard a whole lot more than I’ve done — I think it’s fair to say that every preacher will occasionally misinterpret something. As human beings, we all have the possibility of seeing a connection that’s not really there, or missing one that is, or relying on research (on the original languages or archeology or the ancient context or…) that turns out to be mistaken, etc. I personally haven’t seen Rob Bell show a pattern of misinterpretation, though I’m sure he’s occasionally missed something like we all do.
BTW, no, I’m not familiar with the interview on hell that you’re referring to. But I’m not sure how that relates to the above video…? (Letting Scripture speak for itself on “hell” can be pretty interesting, though!)
Dan I am not familer with G12 tell me what it is what I am talking about is consulting your paster about all things including your finaces and if you do not you are out of the will of God
Lou,
As a pastor I’d like to assure you that if you don’t consult your pastor regarding finances that says nothing about your relationship to God or His will.
The Scriptures are not life’s “instruction book.” They are God’s revelation of Himself to you. They are the means by which the Lord creates faith in Christ.
As a pastor, my job is fairly straightforward: I am to forgive the sins of my people. I am to proclaim the Gospel to them. I am to baptize them. I am to give them the Lord’s body and blood.
Managing personal finances falls nowhere within the Lord’s charge to me in the Scriptures.
Further, I would say that if your pastor isn’t doing the above things but is doing other things instead, leave your church and find one where the pastor does what the Scriptures charge him to do.
G12 is a shepherding movement prevalent in many “Latter Rain” neo-Pentecostal movements. G12 would certainly ask for people to be transparent about their finances or they wouldn’t be “submitting” to their God-appointed leaders.
I think Charles offered some great advice above, namely, “if your pastor isn’t doing the above things but is doing other things instead, leave your church and find one where the pastor does what the Scriptures charge him to do.”
Dan, if you’re talking about the interview Rob Bell did with Vic from theooze.com in 2007, Vic clarifies a bit in the comments that Rob does, in fact, believe in a literal hell. I just did a quick Google search, so if that’s not the interview you’re referring to, just let me know.
Link to interview: http://www.theooze.com/articles/article.cfm?id=1762
My strong impression from listening to him preach is that he sees a clear difference between living life with God and living life apart from God, between living life Jesus’ way and living life our own way, and that this difference has major, lasting, eternal consequences for ourselves and the people around us. He clearly calls people to follow Jesus.
Oh, and Lou: I’m glad to hear you got out of that church!
I hope you’ve found a healthy one to participate in!
That is the interview, Rich. Rob Bell’s exact answer to the question, “do you believe in a literal hell?” was:
“I don’t know why as a Christian you would have to make such declarative statements. Like your friend, does he want there to be a literal hell? I am a bit skeptical of somebody who argues that passionately for a literal hell, why would you be on that side? Like if you are going to pick causes, if you’re literally going to say these are the lines in the sand, I’ve got to know that people are going to burn forever, this is one of the things that you drive your stake in the ground on. I don’t understand that.”
We make such declarative statements because the Bible makes those statements. Jesus constantly talked about being left out in the dark where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Rob Bell’s teaching seems to exclude the prospects of future judgment and instead focuses on positive living in the here and now. That’s all fine and dandy but a primary motivator for what we do is eternal life in heaven, and telling others about Jesus so they can be there too and not burn in a literal hell (which Revelation is pretty clear about). Jesus Himself talked about Gehenna, a valley where trash was burned, in reference to a final place of judgment. Rob Bell and many others today like to avoid talking about that. These are the same folks who like to exclude the last half of Bible statements that give promises to the elect but promise judgment for the unsaved (such as Rev 21:8, people quote the first 7 verses and leave out v. 8).
The problem is that Bell was so evasive on the question, and despite Vic’s later defense, Bell’s quote still stands. Rather than letting his yes be yes and his no no, he made a simple question more complicated than it needed to be (like a politician) and evaded the question.
Think of the logical conclusion of his statement. He is not willing to drive his stake in the ground firmly over the issue of a literal hell. In other words, he doesn’t find that teaching to be an essential part of the faith. If you’ve ever read Velvet Elvis, I don’t know how one could still consider Rob Bell to be a great teacher. For instance, his view on the Scriptures:
“…it wasn’t until the 300s that what we know as the sixty-six books of the Bible were actually agreed upon as the ‘Bible’. This is part of the problem with continually insisting that one of the absolutes of the Christian faith must be a belief that “Scripture alone” is our guide. It sounds nice, but it is not true. In reaction to abuses by the church, a group of believers during a time called the Reformation claimed that we only need the authority of the Bible. But the problem is that we got the Bible from the church voting on what the Bible even is. So when I affirm the Bible as God’s word, in the same breath I have to affirm that when those people voted, God was somehow present, guiding them to do what they did. When people say that all we need is the Bible, it is simply not true. In affirming the Bible as inspired, I also have to affirm the Spirit who I believe was inspiring those people to choose those books.”
-Velvet Elvis, p.68
[The Bible is a] “human product…rather than the product of divine fiat”
- Rob Bell, Emergent Mystique, Christianity Today
Rob Bell also pretty much says that the virgin birth is an unnecessary doctrine that might not be true on page 26 of Velvet Elvis.
P.S. on pages 133-134 of Velvet Elvis he expands on the point he made in the Dust video I posted above. He actually makes the point that we don’t have faith in God so much, rather He has faith in us.
Remember this: “Discernment is not telling the difference between right and wrong; rather it is the difference between right and almost right.”
– Charles Spurgeon
People want to continue defending Rob Bell because he is hip and cool and most of what he says sounds MOSTLY right – but he is leading people into deception. Perhaps soon I’ll do a full post on this.
If you do a separate post on him, I hope you don’t do what I’ve seen some “discernment bloggers” do, which is to quote him and then draw conclusions from what he’s saying that aren’t necessarily the case.
For example, some have shared the above quotes on Scripture and then said, “He doesn’t believe the Bible!” or “He doesn’t trust the Bible!” But he’s not saying that, and to make those kinds of claims about him would be “bearing false witness,” in my opinion. So I hope you don’t do that.
I personally don’t believe he is leading people into deception. For the most part, the things he’s saying are the same things that Bible scholars and seminary professors (brothers and sisters in Christ who spend their whole lives digging into Scripture at a level most of us can’t even imagine) have been saying for years. He’s just saying it well and at a level that we ordinary folks can understand easily. (Most seminary profs can’t quite manage to do that.)
I’m wanting to jump into conversation with you about some of these topics you just brought up (especially his view of Scripture), but maybe I should wait, if you’re going to do a post on him specifically. Or maybe we could talk about that over coffee sometime.
Rich, I am curious as to why you seem to defend Rob Bell more than you do the truth? His comments seem to be pretty cut and dry…why would you need to make an excuse for that?? Unless, of course you agree with his theology, and put scripture to the side…Dan’s quote:
[The Bible is a] “human product…rather than the product of divine fiat”
- Rob Bell, Emergent Mystique, Christianity Today
…seems to say it all (and then of course you have those other quotes)…whether or not a couple of them were taken “out of context”…there are enough quotes that are alarming to me, and many others who seek the Truth of Jesus Christ and the inerrant word of God…In Christ, tiffany
Dan, I finally got to watch your vlog. That was pretty powerful . . . and a little frightening. But I’m glad you put that compilation together. Sometimes I need a reminder of what people outside of the church must think of American Christians.
Tiffany, I’m sorry that you disagree with me, but I certainly don’t see myself as failing to defend the truth. I wouldn’t have become a pastor and started a church if I didn’t believe the Bible and trust in Jesus Christ.
I don’t see Rob Bell as “putting Scripture to the side” in any way. Sunday after Sunday he tries to help his congregation dive into Scripture, understand it better, and live it out in their daily lives. All he’s doing in that quote is acknowledging that the Bible was written by human beings. We Christians are not like Muslims or Mormons who believe that their scriptures were dictated word-for-word to them. We believe that God inspired human beings to speak and to write. They weren’t forced by God to do it (by “divine fiat”). Paul even says in one place, “I say this (I, not the Lord)…” 1 Cor. 7:12. As far as I know, the only part of Scripture that was written by God directly was the 10 Commandments… and those tablets were broken by Moses. And even if they hadn’t been, some human being would have copied them down and compiled them with the rest of the Exodus story. The Bible is a human product.
Just to be clear: I am a Christian. I have staked my life, both now and for all eternity, on Scripture being a reliable witness of what God has done for us in Jesus Christ. I trust the Bible. I preach from it every Sunday morning (going through the Sermon on the Mount right now). I thought I’d make that clear, in case anyone was doubting it based on what I just said.
Hey Rich, seminary professors are more than happy to drive a stake in the ground on many issues, and they often state very clearly EXACTLY what they mean. They use terms that are not commonly used because people have used the same terms to mean different things, so they’ve developed terms to distinguish themselves. For instance, the creeds weren’t written to make Christianity more complex, they were written to combat the heresies of Arianism and Sabellianism/Modalism which denied the co-eternal Godhead as taught in Scripture. Rob Bell likes to talk in circles and turn simple truths into conundrums that sound appealing but don’t really make any declarative conclusions. I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one. I find his teachings to be very dangerous and deceptive. They slowly shift our focus away from Christ and turn it to ourselves. We begin focusing on how we live, how we serve God, how we understand Scripture, how we worship, how we….
Instead of understanding how Christ…. The shift is subtle, but it has already occurred in most American churches. That is one of the primary motivations of this blog: to return people to focus solely on Christ, not a me-centered Christianity.
The most effective deceptions are not blatant, but rather subtle. Once again I quote Spurgeon: “Discernment is not telling the difference between right and wrong; rather it is the difference between right and almost right.”
That’s the funny thing about this to me: Rob Bell preaches just about the exact opposite of a “me-centered Christianity.” What I hear in his messages is something like: Here’s what the Bible tells us Jesus cares about and what he tells his followers to do and care about. So let’s follow him, care about the things he cares about, and do those things. That doesn’t sound to me like shifting our focus away from Christ. That sounds to me like following Christ and allowing Christ to live in us and continue his work through us.
By the way, while many seminary professors are strongly convinced of their positions on things — and why shouldn’t they be, after the years they’ve put into studying and developing them? — the ones I’m familiar with are also very open to ideas that differ from their own. They’ve learned to “think gray” in a world of black and white, to not jump to conclusions, to always be open to new information and new perspectives. Because they’ve seen how their own perspectives have changed over time, as they have learned more and more in their particular area of study.
Of course, I can only speak for the university and seminary professors that I studied under and know personally. Perhaps the ones you know are different.
Just one other thought, as I read back over your comment, Dan… In light of the way Jesus taught and the kinds of answers that our Lord often gave when people tried to pin him down… perhaps we could be a little more understanding when one of Jesus’ followers exhibits a similar approach?
Hey Rich, many people have shifted how they think about peripheral issues, including me. But central issues which constitute Christian orthodoxy, such as the virgin birth of Christ, the authority of the Scriptures, the necessity of regeneration through the Holy Spirit, what it means to be in a relationship with Christ, belief in a literal heaven and hell and a future judgment, etc. are non-negotiable. Rob Bell likes to talk his circles around central issues of orthodoxy. That’s the danger.
Jesus re-framed questions in order to speak to people’s hearts and motives – not to make a simple truth into a mystical, postmodern conundrum. Like I said, I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one.
I’m OK with agreeing to disagree. Really, I am.
What you see as “talking circles around” I see as challenging us to discover what these central issues of orthodoxy really mean and what difference they make for our lives. To use one of your examples, what does it *mean* to say one believes in “the authority of the Scriptures?” Already, different churches and theological traditions have different answers for that question, all within the bounds of “orthodox” Christian faith. I’d rather see someone grapple with that question in all its complexity than see someone give a simplistic answer that skips over the difficult parts.
And, frankly, I think pastors like Rob Bell often re-frame questions for the same reasons you said Jesus did: to speak to people’s hearts and motives. Many evangelical Christians are able to give the right answers (the “simple truth”) without really knowing why or what those answers mean for their lives — as evidenced by the fact that their lives aren’t measurably different from those who don’t know the right answers. So I’m more than OK with pastors who challenge people to think again about what they believe and why.
One of the reasons why i have found our generation doesn’t want to go to church is because all we want is a place to go that teaches the Bible, not what some other pastor interprets the Bible to say. Hopefully preachers, priests, pastors, and leaders throughout America get their heads out of their butts and realize that there is a whole generation that isn’t in church anymore. From our perspective, the American church building leaders are focused on is nonsense, and pleasing man or self. Our generation sees through the BullS**t and we want something real. We want truth, and we want a leader who isn’t trying so hard to please the masses…we want unadultered truth of scripture, no man’s fanciful thoughts about not being offensive…THE TRUE GOSPEL IS OFFENSIVE! This isn’t a game or a another job…these are peoples lives. America is lost…lets not dance around the issue that souls are going to hell…Many are going as I write this…what are WE as the bride of Christ doing about this??
BTW, Jesus spoke to the hearts of many, but when he talked to Jewish leaders and rabbis of his day, they were confused and pissed when he shared the offensive message of God. They disagreed with what he had to say…he wasn’t all that popular as you can recall from the Word…it seems pretty plain to me. Jesus would have corrected Rob Bell, and truly this is more THAN Robb Bell…this is DEFENDING THE TRUTH OF SCRIPTURE! Not trying so hard to be politically correct.
Where is my generation? At the bar, at the casinos, at the clubs, in other peoples beds, and chilling with some drug…my generation is sick and tired of the church giving them Bulls**t answers of fluff all the time…c’mon!
Hey Dan, I know I’m late on this, but I just watched the video on “Youtube,” and thought you did a great job putting it together. I read elsewhere that you recently learned Rob Bell’s “Marshill” isn’t affiliated with Driscoll’s “Marshill.” I see in the video it showed Rob Bell’s church to be in Washington, when in fact it’s in Michigan.
One thing to add as a brother in Christ. I know we all use “blanket” statements when referring to “the church,” but I think your questioning might come off a little to “all inclusive,” and I would simply ask you to maybe rephrase some things for future discussion. I know many churches that do in fact “preach and teach” the crucifixion, atonement, sin, repentance, etc., and wouldn’t want to say that “all” or even “most” churches in America don’t use the bible.
The examples you used in your video are for the most part, heretics and false prophets, and aren’t a part of Christ’s true bride. So to set them up as “the norm” for today’s “church” is risky.
I’ve been familiar with you long enough to know where your coming from, but just thought I’d mention these as bro in Christ.
Take care, and congrats on the graduation!
Point taken, Steve. In my own observation, this seems to be a church-wide problem – not just some particular churches. Most churches are doing their latest sermon series on a good book they’ve just read rather than drawing all teaching and preaching from the word of God. To what extreme churches take it varies, but most do this. While the folks in this video are mostly heretics, most Christians identify with several of them and MANY churches are using teachings from two of these guys.
I ran across this article by Rob Bell talking about why he preached verse-by-verse through Leviticus for the first year when he started Mars Hill Bible Church. Since this is the post I remembered having all the Rob Bell conversations on (and can’t seem to find a better one using the search box), I thought I’d share it here.
http://pttranscripts.stores.yahoo.net/liinle.html
It’s quick and worth the read.
I’m sure more time could have been spent revealing the ear tickling, watered-down, gnostic preachers that are sweeping the pulpits and Christian book stores these days, but kuddos to your sincere concern for the church at large. More people should speak up about this GROWING problem. The gospel goes into a culture and the culture changes, the gospel does not change because the culture changes. We must allow God’s Truth and the Holy Spirit to rule our hearts. We were called to suffer. That’s the cost for being in the world, not of the world, loving not the things in the world: but the people who are in it…who were we but enemies of God before Christ came?
thanks. It’s nice to find others who are concerned about the church out there.
Oh my. Is this really what it’s like “out there”? This is scary.
Yes J.W., it really is like that “out there.” I’ve been “out there” for a few years, and trust me, it’s this bad.
What can we do?
Properly divide Law and Gospel, expose false teaching, preach the true and pure Gospel, and teach and encourage others to do the same.