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	<title>Comments on: Revisiting the Paradox of Salvation &#8211; Part 4</title>
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	<link>http://prayeramedic.com/2009/09/revisiting-the-paradox-of-salvation-part-4/</link>
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		<title>By: Revisiting the Paradox of Salvation &#8211; Part 3 &#124; prayeramedic</title>
		<link>http://prayeramedic.com/2009/09/revisiting-the-paradox-of-salvation-part-4/comment-page-1/#comment-914</link>
		<dc:creator>Revisiting the Paradox of Salvation &#8211; Part 3 &#124; prayeramedic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Sep 2009 02:29:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prayeramedic.com/?p=943#comment-914</guid>
		<description>[...] to it in the word of God, namely the forgiveness of sins and the seal of the Holy Spirit. Look for part 4 soon, where we will begin to further discuss the link between the Holy Spirit and baptism by [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] to it in the word of God, namely the forgiveness of sins and the seal of the Holy Spirit. Look for part 4 soon, where we will begin to further discuss the link between the Holy Spirit and baptism by [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dan O'Day (prayeramedic)</title>
		<link>http://prayeramedic.com/2009/09/revisiting-the-paradox-of-salvation-part-4/comment-page-1/#comment-915</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan O'Day (prayeramedic)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Sep 2009 19:16:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prayeramedic.com/?p=943#comment-915</guid>
		<description>It seems clear that baptism and the Holy Spirit are connected in scripture, I&#039;m not saying this - the Bible is. And yes, I do intend to get into that more in depth in part 5 with 1 Peter 3.

Do I think that someone can receive the Holy Spirit apart from Baptism? Absolutely. Does it happen? All the time. But it seems the two go together throughout the book of Acts, and they are linked somehow. I&#039;m not trying to turn it into a formula like sacramentalists do, saying that we receive the Spirit through baptism. But I am saying there is a strong link, whether symbolic or mystical. I lean towards the mystical, but I don&#039;t claim to understand it. It does seem clear that God is doing something for us through baptism.

As I made clear in part 3, we are buried with Christ through baptism (Rom 6:3-4), and baptism is a work of God, the &quot;circumcision done by Christ&quot; (Col. 2:11-12). To say more than that is difficult, because the Bible doesn&#039;t say much more. My point is that we underscore the importance of baptism a lot in church circles these days, and it seems to be a gift of grace from God, through which He works in our lives.

At the same time, I&#039;m not trying to espouse a doctrinal statement yet. Mine is available on this website, go to the about me page - I have a whole section on baptism. Also you can search past posts, I&#039;ve talked about it before. My point in this post is to show what the Bible says, and let people connect the dots themselves. I know there is a lot of &quot;wiggle room&quot; here, and that is intentional. I wasn&#039;t trying to draw lines in the sand with this post, I&#039;m simply trying to get people to think critically about what the Bible says rather than using the language espoused in all the Christian cliches and doctrinal statements.

The important part to understand from scripture seems to be that baptism is a gift of grace which God works through in order to identify us with Christ in his burial and new covenant. We can each develop more lengthy doctrinal positions from this by applying human reasoning/logic, but for now I just want to let the Bible speak for itself. In part 5 I will conclude with a personal statement, and I&#039;m going to draw heat for it, so stay posted ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems clear that baptism and the Holy Spirit are connected in scripture, I&#8217;m not saying this &#8211; the Bible is. And yes, I do intend to get into that more in depth in part 5 with 1 Peter 3.</p>
<p>Do I think that someone can receive the Holy Spirit apart from Baptism? Absolutely. Does it happen? All the time. But it seems the two go together throughout the book of Acts, and they are linked somehow. I&#8217;m not trying to turn it into a formula like sacramentalists do, saying that we receive the Spirit through baptism. But I am saying there is a strong link, whether symbolic or mystical. I lean towards the mystical, but I don&#8217;t claim to understand it. It does seem clear that God is doing something for us through baptism.</p>
<p>As I made clear in part 3, we are buried with Christ through baptism (Rom 6:3-4), and baptism is a work of God, the &#8220;circumcision done by Christ&#8221; (Col. 2:11-12). To say more than that is difficult, because the Bible doesn&#8217;t say much more. My point is that we underscore the importance of baptism a lot in church circles these days, and it seems to be a gift of grace from God, through which He works in our lives.</p>
<p>At the same time, I&#8217;m not trying to espouse a doctrinal statement yet. Mine is available on this website, go to the about me page &#8211; I have a whole section on baptism. Also you can search past posts, I&#8217;ve talked about it before. My point in this post is to show what the Bible says, and let people connect the dots themselves. I know there is a lot of &#8220;wiggle room&#8221; here, and that is intentional. I wasn&#8217;t trying to draw lines in the sand with this post, I&#8217;m simply trying to get people to think critically about what the Bible says rather than using the language espoused in all the Christian cliches and doctrinal statements.</p>
<p>The important part to understand from scripture seems to be that baptism is a gift of grace which God works through in order to identify us with Christ in his burial and new covenant. We can each develop more lengthy doctrinal positions from this by applying human reasoning/logic, but for now I just want to let the Bible speak for itself. In part 5 I will conclude with a personal statement, and I&#8217;m going to draw heat for it, so stay posted <img src='http://prayeramedic.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Daniel</title>
		<link>http://prayeramedic.com/2009/09/revisiting-the-paradox-of-salvation-part-4/comment-page-1/#comment-913</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Sep 2009 16:12:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prayeramedic.com/?p=943#comment-913</guid>
		<description>Perhaps this ties into to the upcoming post, and I&#039;m &quot;jumping ahead&quot;, but I feel the need to ask...   Are you implying, (or even flatly stating) that baptism is that which imparts the Holy Spirit?  It seems that this is what you are essentially saying, since even though you acknowledge that sometimes the order in which each happens is switched around, the two are always in &quot;immidiate context&quot;...  So it seems you are saying that no baptism = no Holy Spirit (which would then, by extension, mean no baptism = no salvation...)

In 1 Peter 3 he refers to baptism as &quot;the pledge of a good conscience toward God&quot;.  And in Acts ch. 10 we see Simon the Sorcerer included in those who believed and were baptized, but then later Peter rebukes him for trying to buy the power of imparting the Spirit through the laying on of hands.  So, even though Simon had been baptized, Peter is essentially saying &quot;repent, you are not right before God&quot;.  So though he had already been baptized, wasn&#039;t that baptism merely a pledge of what Simon really had to do in his heart?  A pledge is just a pledge, but whether or not we act in accordance to what we pledge, that is what makes the pledge count for something...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps this ties into to the upcoming post, and I&#8217;m &#8220;jumping ahead&#8221;, but I feel the need to ask&#8230;   Are you implying, (or even flatly stating) that baptism is that which imparts the Holy Spirit?  It seems that this is what you are essentially saying, since even though you acknowledge that sometimes the order in which each happens is switched around, the two are always in &#8220;immidiate context&#8221;&#8230;  So it seems you are saying that no baptism = no Holy Spirit (which would then, by extension, mean no baptism = no salvation&#8230;)</p>
<p>In 1 Peter 3 he refers to baptism as &#8220;the pledge of a good conscience toward God&#8221;.  And in Acts ch. 10 we see Simon the Sorcerer included in those who believed and were baptized, but then later Peter rebukes him for trying to buy the power of imparting the Spirit through the laying on of hands.  So, even though Simon had been baptized, Peter is essentially saying &#8220;repent, you are not right before God&#8221;.  So though he had already been baptized, wasn&#8217;t that baptism merely a pledge of what Simon really had to do in his heart?  A pledge is just a pledge, but whether or not we act in accordance to what we pledge, that is what makes the pledge count for something&#8230;</p>
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